Official Luthiers Forum!

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Tickle your guitar daily, and it'll tickle you back.

Check this bridge (and more) from John Kinnaird!!!!
John How39028.926875

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Tickle your guitar daily, and it'll tickle you back.

I think I have worked on that John Kinnaird guitar. It is awesome in person.
Great bridges!
Evan

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http://www.NewYorkGuitarRepair.com

Brazilian bridge with FWI pins and saddle.

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John Mayes
http://www.mayesluthier.com

Ron

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OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

I'm leaning a bit toward simple.

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now known around here as Pat Foster
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com

Dang, John M, that's one pretty bridge!

Got yer advanced voicing DVD. Like it a lot so far.

John H, very nice. Your designs?

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now known around here as Pat Foster
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com

Wow.
When I started this thread I just wanted to see a few bridges. Boy did get to
see a lot of them. What a range. From simple to extravagant!!!
I have come up with a design that is not the same as any of the above. It
follows the lines and curves of my headstock and end of fretboard. I will
post a pict when I make one!!!!

Thanks for the great reply

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Andy Z.
http://www.lazydogguitars.com

This is a great thread.

Awsome stuff ya'll

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My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Here's mine:

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

I have been reshaping the surface of bridges since 1997, as an integral part of re-voicing a guitar. I wrote an article on my observations and conclusions for the GAL quarterly, "American Lutherie", which was published Spring, 2001, #66. This is available through GAL at luth.org.

I have also written about much of this on my web site, and have pictures of a streamlined Guild bridge on the Re-voicing page.

Basically, I agree with Burbank that simpler is better. Just as ridges, corners and peaks interfere with the flow of energy through the top's braces under the soundboard, they do so on the one above it.

I think a bridge should cause the least physical disruption with the surface of the soundboard for its energy to flow into it smoothly, easily and completely. The bridges Hesh designed show this concept well. The bridge that Burbank designed looks close to exactly like the re-shaped vintage Gibson rectangular bridge on a recently re-voiced guitar.

According to Sound is Round, the bridge sits in prime treble generating territory. A large footprint, even streamlined, will dampen treble, which is why I think smaller is better, too. Had Orville Gibson been clean shaven, I wonder if those clumsy, handle bar mustache bridges would be dampening the treble on so many guitars?

One effect of standard factory bridges is that most have wings that end with a corner, dropping off/down about 3/32" to the soundboard's surface. This causes dampening of the treble's individual note rings that pass through the ends of the wings.

You can demonstrate this for yourself on any guitar with such a bridge. The open E (1st) string usually finds resonance with a ring large enough in diameter to pass outside the wings (center of the ring is the cross point of the X, making symmetry with the bridge). You can pluck the open string and usually find the surface outside of each wing vibrating. Then, climb up the frets, and most likely you will hear a distinct drop in volume somewhere around the 3rd to 7th fret. However, this depends on the geometry of the top braces, top thickness, and bridge placement, and on one guitar this year, the dampening occurred on the B string.

Plucking the first or second quiet fret, you can feel little vibration outside of the bridge wings or over the ends of the wings. The corners are dampening the release and flow of energy. Usually as you climb up above the quiet frets (maybe 3 in a row) the volume increases again, as the rings grow even smaller and pass inside of the wings' ends. This is where it's important to flow the belly into the top, as does Hesh's design, to allow good volume up the neck.

A view of the bridge I designed is also on my web site on the van Linge guitars page. Even with that very simple design, if I do not feather the ends and belly carefully enough, I will get quiet E string frets.

I also think that less mass allows for more headroom and a quicker response. Mass has inertia, and there is a transient response time before it gets moving, which increases with mass.

One feature of many guitars is that the low E is not as loud as the A string. I've discovered that this is related to the design of the standard Martin style bridge. The ridge where the main body starts to scallop down to the wings' height absorbs energy more from the two closest strings, and also is the peak of a not-quite triangle of dampening wood that can be removed in streamlining, as many of the bridges here show. I have proven to myself that the volume of the low E can be brought up to that of the A, or at least much closer, simply by reshaping the bridge before I tackle the braces inside. This affects the high E, too, but other factors with top bracing are not as consistent in making the E or B the loudest.

How strange that a design feature also turns out to be a design flaw...

These concepts also apply to classical bridges, and I discuss and show pictures of one of those I reshaped, and how it affected the sound, on the Re-voicing page.

Scott

Great thread indeed fellas, i just love the creativity shown here, here is the one on my no 2:

Scott,

Interesting indeed! What I extrapolate from your posting is that the a better sound producing bridge would be the least amount of material that would support the saddle and have a bottom glue surface area that would support the pull of the strings. Would this be correct? Does anyone know what the minimum glue surface area required for a 25.4 scale dreadnaught with medium strings would be?

Everyone,

I like this thread. It really shows the ability of all the members to accomplish the same goal while bringing each person uniqueness to the bridge.

Philip

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aka konacat

If you think my playing is bad you should hear me sing!
Practice breeds confidence and confidence breeds competence. Unfortunately, I'm stuck in practice.

/\ totally agree. Inspiring thread indeed. I too would like to know the optimum glue surface area, as my bridge design is...well..interesting to say the least.

Beautiful bridges, everyone!!!Sam Price39029.5760532407

Phillip,

The bridge on the Gibson J-45 dreadnought was 6" x 15/16", and looked like Burbank's. I don't think you could get more minimal than this size, and it is still working well on many guitars.

The not quite oval shape of the bridge I use is 5 7/8" x 1 7/16". I think that the curve toward the soundhole gives more support for the saddle and increases the lever arm effect of the saddle height over the soundboard for a little more volume.

I do know that bridges with very low saddles, thus short lever arms, produce very little treble. Years ago, someone reset the neck on my D-28 to get more volume, and did it too much. Cracked three bridges along the saddle slot--too much lever effect--before I had the neck moved back a bit. That's partly why I developed mine. Along with something to compliment the guitar's natural curves.

I think symmetry is important, too. My first few bridges were taller at the bass end of the saddle slot by maybe .030", a nod to convention. But I later sanded that down so that it was symmetrical, side to side (or, wing to wing) and was greated with an enhanced bass response. Moving into bs territory, I will offer that asymmetry may end up causing the bridge to fight itself, holding energy in, instead of vibrating easily and in harmony, so to speak.

I've forgotten my integral calculus, or I could probably calculate the surface area of my bridge. I think of it as my nickel bridge, since that's what I used for the end curves. I think curved ends will lessen the chance of the top developing cracks along them by spreading the twisting effect of string tension over numerous grains.   

Scott

.Rod True39029.6405092593

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My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Rod,

I have a friend with a tin ear who emailed me that she could hear the difference. Maybe yours is platinum?

However, I agree there is not enough difference to wow anyone. A big part of doing that was to stop the flow of advise that I do that. It's a no brainer. All along I thought it wouldn't help much, though. But then a year ago I got in a guitar for bracework without a hurry, and a friend had just finished a local sound studio.

To tell the difference, one must hold and play a guitar I've re-voiced. They feel alive, take much less work to get the sound out, so dynamics are easier, but can still take a real beating--like me playing "Peggy Sue". The testimonials on my web site are completely real. Only one customer that I know of was disappointed in the results. He said he wanted a "sweet" sound from his Goodall OM with European spruce and koa b/s. I told him I could balance the string volumes, and increase the overall volume, sustain and headroom. But I couldn't change the overall tone of the guitar, which is determined by the woods used and size/shape of the guitar.

When finished, he said I had done everything I said I would, but it still didn't sound "sweet". It turns out that "sweet" is the sound of a mahogany OM Martin with a red spruce top.

I agree that much of liking a guitar is subjective, but I'm not sure that it's the reason there are so many builders and manufacturers. A basic law of capitalism is that he number of any business type increases to the point where no one is making a profit. I don't know how close lutherie is to that point, but it's approaching it.

Scott

[quote=Scott van Linge]A basic law of capitalism is that he number of any business type increases to the point where no one is making a profit. I don't know how close lutherie is to that point, but it's approaching it. [/quote]

I agree. I'm just finishing up a basic university microeconomics class (not realy my cup of tea, but it's a hoop I have to jump through at the moment) and I too see that lutherie is approaching the point where the average total cost to build is the price. And China is really helping with that. They are not really the custom builders competition so long as the buying public see a nead for better sounding and better quality guitars.

Thanks for sharing.

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My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Here are a couple more:

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Rian Gitar og Mandolin

Rod,
That's a whole other topic...one which we've talked about at length, and one I never tire of I might add.

The cost of materials has skyrocketed, at least as far as exotic woods is concerned. I was once able to buy ziricote lumber for under $15/bf, and it is almost four times that now, IF you can find it. Add to that all the other intangibles like the rising utilities cost, and making a living a luthery starts to lose its appeal real fast.

Ok...back to bridges....there are some very nice ones here!

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

I PM'd Scott as I thought that is may have been more appropriate that way, but since he answer here, I will post the PM.

In my own humble opinion, there is only so much that can be done to a guitar before the naked ear can't distinguish a difference.

I do appreciate all your research and tests and "tweaking" of guitars over all these years Scott, but for me, I just don't hear that much of a difference in the "before and after re voicing" audio clip on your web site. I'm not, repeat, NOT disputing that you and your clients hear a difference. I just don't is all.

The beautiful thing about guitars especially but all instruments for that matter is that the beauty of the sound is in the ear of the beholder. If this weren't the case, than there certainly wouldn't be so many factory's and custom builders out there.

If there were a poll done of 1000 top guitar players on what the best sounding guitar, bar none was, I bet you would get nearly 1000 different guitars. Each is unique and although we all want to achieve a great sounding guitar, what sounds great to me may sound like total caca to someone else. I mean, most of us would say that an ovation doesn't sound very good compared to other guitars in the same price range, but......there have been several thousand ovations sold over the years.

Subjectivity is something that I have to take into account every single day with my appraisal job.

Everything that has value is subject to the purchasers desire. EVERYTHING. That is why there are so many options out there.

I do appreciate all that you bring to this great forum Scott, please don't think otherwise.

I only wish sometimes that some peoples responses (not just yours) would state that these results are subjective is all.

Thanks for letting me speak my mind. Rod True39029.7285185185

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My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

[QUOTE=Arnt]



[/QUOTE]

I love that shape. My Avalon has a bridge exactly like it and it looks so classy.